DUST Search - Perfecting the Roles - The Scout

Revelations 514 wrote:

I have read many of your posts, the hitbox one was well done as well as this one. +1 for you sir.

My suggestion, as I was pondering this myself last night, is as follows. Please let me know what you think.

Lower jump costs to stam for Scouts so that we are agile. Decrease fall damage as well.
A small increase in both CPU and PG for each level of suit.

Allow cloaking to be equipment, however all Scouts come with the mechanism built into the suit. So while it's an option to use for everyone, only Scouts get this without using CPU/PG and an equipment slot.

Cloaking will be balanced by a timer, 30 second cloak with 1 min cooldown. While cloaked, you move 50% slower.
All scouts get a 5% increase in speed while cloaked per level, meaning when Scout is fully leveled they only move 25% slower while cloaked.

Firing, using items, ect will break cloak and start your cooldown timer.
if you are hit while cloaked, you are visible for a short time but does not break cloak completely. Think of this much like shield regen, you get hit but when you are no longer getting hit you slowly fade back to cloaked as long as you are within your 30 second cloak timer. Your cooldown period does not begin until cloak is fully broken by using weapons/items or time runs out.

Gallente Scouts racial bonus is 10% reduction to cloak cooldown timer. Meaning fully leveled the cooldown will be 30 seconds rather than one minute. This allows Gallente to practically perma stealth when fully leveled, as long as they dont break cloak early from any of the above, but will still force you to find a private place to re-apply your stealth.

*The times may be slightly excessive, so maybe drop this to 30 second cooldown, 15 second cloak. Keep reduction for Gallente racial bonus as this is based on a percentage so has the same effect.


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Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy 2260	Posted - 2013.07.31 12:53:00 - [1] - Quote -Sharp inhale, runs hands over his face and lets loose a heavy sigh- Okay.. where to begin... So, I've poured over the feedback/requests forum looking for every ounce of Scout feedback I could find and compiling a list. Suffice to say it's apparently a bigger issue than I originally figured when I decided to tackle it but I'm not going to bore this community with semantics and rhetoric. Let's just jump right into the list. Ordered from most commonly suggested to least commonly suggested: - CPU/PG Increase - More Equipment Slots - Increased Speed - Stamina Fix (previously nerfed) - Ability to Sprint and Charge Knives - Increased Scan Range - Smaller Hit Box - Biotics re-work (reduced CPU/PG requirements) - Reduced Fall Damage Now that that's out of the way, I'm going to say that there are a few things I agree with and a few things that I don't because in my opinion there's a lot going on with the development side of things and some of this changes just don't coincide with that very well. So allow me to explain (I won't even try to be brief). Sensor Profile and You Considering there are changes coming that remove shared visibility of targets on the mini-map, I'm convinced that this will eliminate most of the issue behind the Profile/Precision. For the longest time I had practically demanded to every CPM representative that I spoke with that you should only appear on Tacnet if their precision can beat your profile, even when aiming down the sights. This is a very bad thing as a sniper just has to look in your general direction and you're lit up for his entire team/squad. Low Profile is practically useless to a Scout so long as Tacnet exists and that's an unfortunate side effect of things. However, with the future changes practically forcing the use of the Active Scanner and/or legitimate voice communication to relay location(s) of OPFORs this is pretty much fixed, assuming it's actually working as intended to which I won't hold my breath. Skill Requirements I can't fathom the design decision to make Scouts focused entirely on the use of Biotics when Biotics have such ridiculous skill requirements for very little results. Requiring Biotic Upgrades 5 just to access the standard Kinetic Catalyzer is ludicrous and considering that the skill itself only provides a 1% bonus to Sprint Speed, Stamina Capacity and Stamina Recharge it's not exactly the most useful skill in the game. In order for a Scout to be effective with the issues that it faces you have to get pretty much every skill in Dropsuit Upgrades to level 5 - that's not including a weapon. Survivability (armor/shield upgrades) Speed (biotic upgrades and the skills it bridges into) Electronics (bridging into profile dampening/precision enhancement) and Fitting (engineering/electronics/core upgrades) are all NECESSARY in order to even be a remotely decent Scout. These are skills that are supplementary to every other class but are the staple of the Scout's very existence, making it insanely difficult to be a worthwhile scout and requiring MILLIONS of SP to be effective and we haven't even touched weaponry yet. PG/CPU and Slot Layouts I can understand having low PG/CPU on the Scout from a design perspective but there must have been some miscommunication when Biotics wound up having such high resource costs. These are modules that I would look at in passing as an Assault as they don't increase my damage dealing capabilities or my survivability and being as I don't rely on speed as my main form of defense they're not exactly on my highest list of things to attain. Skill requirements aside, it's amazing to me that Scouts need these costly modules in tandem with some form of Shield or Armor supplement. Armor Repairers are practically necessary if you want to recover from the stupid things like Fall Damage (we'll get to that in a moment) and Reactive Plates are far more costly than a single Repairer. Either way, it's eating a Low Slot which you're going to be needing for your Speed/Stamina modules but both of those have issues associated with them as well (which we will also get to in a moment). Beyond that, having only one Equipment slot restricts Scouts into fielding one necessary thing over another. A scout -could- use a Drop Uplink (assuming he could fit the damned thing in the first place) or he -could- use an Active Scanner. Both of which are a nice contribution to the Scout's alleged role of Reconnaissance but all in all it's inevitably going to be a choice. Assuming, of course, he can fit one or the other. Fall Damage and The Stupid Death Jack be nimble, jack be quick - Jack jumped off the rail and fell to his death. There is nothing more infuriating (yet hilarious) than imagining (I don't role scout so I don't have this happen often) what it's like to take a wallop of damage from an enemy that you just couldn't quite kill, only to die at the hands of gravity when you decided a tactical retreat was the best option. Considering that Scouts have such low EHP values, fall damage is something of a finicky thing. What I could survive the brunt of just with my shields as an Assault, a Scout will usually find himself in a hairy situation - especially under fire. Suffice to say, if you try to escape at elevation after having taken a few rounds, you're more than likely not going to live through it. This is made worse if you don't provide yourself an Armor Repairer (see above) to recover from the damage as more than one fall will make short work of you in a hurry. As for the Stupid Death - I've actually seen a Scout (probably new player) get one-shotted and 'suicided' by overheating a Laser Rifle. W. T. F. Continued in next post
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy 2260	Posted - 2013.07.31 12:53:00 - [2] - Quote Stamina and Stamina Related Issues I don't even know where the hell to begin with this. There are a lot of stupid little nit-picky things I have to say considering how Stamina is the life or death of a good Scout. Considering that Cardiac Regulators increase both Stamina and Stamina recovery, it took me a good long while to wrap my head around the fact that my Cardiac Stimulant (beta BPO) was practically worthless and was only good for having slightly more PG cost than CPU. Dunno. We won't touch that one. However, I've done some experimenting with this non-sense and I have to say that the limitations on Stamina and Stamina Recovery are just obtuse. I understand we want to put a limitation on the Bunny Hopping phenomenon that many FPS players use but considering that jumping isn't exactly the most wise thing a player can do in Dust 514.... Yanno what, let me explain that bit real fast... There is no point to jumping because you don't jump high enough (that means you too, scouts) to prevent gunfire from landing shots on your kneecaps. So, with that out of the way, Bunny Hopping isn't this giant threat that it is in say.. Halo, which practically hallmarks on the tactic because you can jump higher than the person's reticle (this is also because the reticle is lower on the screen, rather than the center). But beyond that - and I'm going to underline this so it actually gets read - No matter how much stamina you have, jumping still eats 30% of your stamina bar. I've actually stacked Cardiac Regulators and packed a gigantic 300+ stamina capacity onto a Scout suit and it doesn't do any justice when it comes to jumping. This is a major issue as there are a lot of shortcuts Scouts need to be able to use in order for them to dip in and out of combat that other suits can't utilize. There's actually on area near objective Alpha on the Biomass Outpost where you can't jump over the wall WITH A FULL STAMINA BAR. I know, I've tried and I died a horrible horrible death to an LAV gunner while I waited like a fool for my stamina to recover just enough to make the jump. Combine that with the interesting issue in that Stamina Recovery actually has a delay (I dunno who asked for this but I'm going to scalp you) and you'll be waiting there for quite some time as your Stamina decides whether or not it wants to save your life. This applies to Sprinting as well, so no amount of speed, 8m/s or 10m/s is going to save you when you're waiting for that bar to fill. The Invariable Issue of the Hitbox/Collision Box I have a very lengthy thread regarding this phenomenon here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1079159#post1079159 For a good long while there was the misconception that the Scout's hitbox increased in size as he tried to Sprint. Through very lengthy and extensive testing my team and a few volunteers discovered this was not the case. BUT. BUT....... The Collision Box DOES increase in size for whatever reason. This means that you're more likely to get caught on objects as you try to sprint past them and will sometimes prevent you outright from going through a tight gap with which you originally would have been able to walk through. As far as the Hitbox however, my team did confirm that the Hitbox does in fact lag further behind the player as they increase in speed. The faster you go, the farther back your hitbox is. This is why when I train my Assault guys in the corporation I encourage them to aim -behind- the scout rather than in front (leading) or directly at him. This has proven to be FAR more effective as it's solely due to a gameplay mechanic rather than any kind of balance or design. Unfortunately, while the collision box increase is something that CCP can handle, I'm not sure there's anything that can be done about the Hit Box Lag in tandem with speed without actually screwing around with the hit box location. I had once suggested actually moving the hit box INFRONT of the scout but I recalled this idea when I started thinking of how wonky it would be when the Scout started turning corners. Either way, this is definitely something that negatively impacts the Scout. And finally.... Lack of a Definitive Role As much as it pains me to say this there is simply nothing a Scout can do that someone else can't do better. I've heard many suggestions as to what they can do better but there really isn't much in the line of a definitive role that isn't outright usurped by another playstyle. Minmatar Logistics will always hack faster... Caldari Assault will always make a better CQC fighter... A Minmatar Scout, even at level 5, still can't do as much Melee damage as a Heavy (relying solely on knives)... And worse yet, any ******* with a BPO LAV will inevitably get from Point A to Point B faster than the fastest Scout. This may seem unlikely but I've actually raced a Proto Minmatar Scout with Kinetic Catalyzers, my RDV dropped off my LAV and I arrived at the Objective with time to spare to initiate the hack. Crossed with low fitting capabilities there is unfortunately NOTHING a Scout can do that someone else can't do better, with the exception of Minmatar Scout + Nova Knives dishing out as much damage as a Railgun but considering how hard it is to master their use I don't consider it a definitive role and just as well it doesn't apply to ALL Scouts. Worse yet, according to my math, a Scout with all level 5 skills would still have to throw on TWO COMPLEX PROFILE DAMPENERS to get beneath a Prototype Active Scanner, resulting in a situation where the Scout has to spend more SP, ISK and fitting capabilities (-2 low slots) just to overcome a single equipment slot that infringes on one of his main defenses, and if he's fitting Profile Dampeners, he's probably not using Biotics to increase his Stamina/Speed and will make an easy target in the event that I find him without the scanner anyway
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy 2260	Posted - 2013.07.31 12:54:00 - [3] - Quote Oh dear God, Aeon, how the hell did it get this bad...? What can we do? I have dabbled with a few ideas on how to permanently fix the Scout suit and have bounced ideas off of the CPM with the hopes they'd pass it on to CCP. Unfortunately, many of the CPM are either unresponsive or disagreed with what I had to offer. As such, I've decided that perhaps the community would prefer to hear those ideas and could help define them into plausible, working implementations. - Cloaking. This is something I was very wary of when it first mentioned and still am. In my opinion, this is not something that belongs in the hands of every player. I feel that Cloaking is more suited for the Scout, coincides with it's pre-designed role and would greatly benefit in it's re-balance. Beyond that, I feel that limiting Cloaking as a Scout-only theme would give it a specialization that no other suit could offer, much like Sentinels are permitted the use of Heavy Weapons and Logistics are given more equipment slots. However, this isn't something to be taken lightly. Cloaking makes or breaks a game and we have to be compassionate toward the other roles and think about how OP it would be for a Scout to be able to charge his knives and have perfect concealment. Instead, I feel that Cloaking should be disrupted on two levels. Level One, in which actions such as sprinting or charging knives will cause the Cloaking to not work as efficiently. Level Two, in which actions like firing your weapon shut the cloaking down and start up the cool-down timer. Of course, without knowing what CCP has in store for it, this is all speculation and theory. Beyond that it's just hopes and dreams. - Drop Uplink Specialization At first I thought it was a great idea but then I had to recall this standpoint as it would pretty much invalidate any other player who decided to drop SP into it only to have it ripped away for the sake of balancing a broken role. Considering the sheer amount of Drop Uplink spam going on in many PC matches (and some pub matches) I figured it would do the game a bit of justice to limit Drop Uplinks to Scouts, forcing teams to put some thought in the placement of them rather than tossing them out into the open just to get the team closer to the objective. This idea was later recanted in favor of a discussion regarding Drop Uplink caps, and while I'm entirely against limiting how many Drop Uplinks a team can have (last thing we need is for Johnny Nobody to grief a pubmatch by capping out the DUs in the redline at the start of the match) I did give a bit of a nod to the ideal that Drop Uplinks caps could work on a player-by-player basis. However, I know there's going to be a lot of pissed off players who don't want their Drop Uplinks infringed after investing hundreds of thousands of SP into them. Another issue is that Drop Uplinks are WAY TOO VISIBLE at the moment. It's been chalked up that it's a bug (albeit a bug that's lasted since May 6th... Hint, hint CCP..) but considering all you have to do to find them is look at your minimap, they're not exactly 'Scout privy'. - A Complete and Total Overhaul "Scouts need some love" is the common phrase but honestly they need more than love, they need a complete balance pass to put them in line with other specializations. Considering the WEALTH of information provided here on the forums, I'm sure we can all sit down and think about a good place to start. Either way, a Profile Reduction and Scan Radius/Melee Increase just isn't cutting it right now. Not with such low fitting capabilities and risk vs reward associated with them. The only way this is ever going to be fixed is if each issue is looked at individually with the pros and cons weighed out. The amount of skill required to play scouts is way too high for the reward you get from them and it can get pretty overwhelming when you sit down and try to figure all of those issues out. There's a hundred thousand different paths that can be taken with Scouts and I implore CCP to answer one question first: "What is it that we want Scouts to do that no-one else can do better?" Alright... We're done.... Maybe.... Kinda... Sorta... Yeah, we're done. Thanks guys. Feel free to discuss.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy 2282	Posted - 2013.07.31 23:58:00 - [4] - Quote Revelations 514 wrote: I have read many of your posts, the hitbox one was well done as well as this one. +1 for you sir. My suggestion, as I was pondering this myself last night, is as follows. Please let me know what you think. Lower jump costs to stam for Scouts so that we are agile. Decrease fall damage as well. A small increase in both CPU and PG for each level of suit. Allow cloaking to be equipment, however all Scouts come with the mechanism built into the suit. So while it's an option to use for everyone, only Scouts get this without using CPU/PG and an equipment slot. Cloaking will be balanced by a timer, 30 second cloak with 1 min cooldown. While cloaked, you move 50% slower. All scouts get a 5% increase in speed while cloaked per level, meaning when Scout is fully leveled they only move 25% slower while cloaked. Firing, using items, ect will break cloak and start your cooldown timer. if you are hit while cloaked, you are visible for a short time but does not break cloak completely. Think of this much like shield regen, you get hit but when you are no longer getting hit you slowly fade back to cloaked as long as you are within your 30 second cloak timer. Your cooldown period does not begin until cloak is fully broken by using weapons/items or time runs out. Gallente Scouts racial bonus is 10% reduction to cloak cooldown timer. Meaning fully leveled the cooldown will be 30 seconds rather than one minute. This allows Gallente to practically perma stealth when fully leveled, as long as they dont break cloak early from any of the above, but will still force you to find a private place to re-apply your stealth. *The times may be slightly excessive, so maybe drop this to 30 second cooldown, 15 second cloak. Keep reduction for Gallente racial bonus as this is based on a percentage so has the same effect. I sort of like the idea but at the same time I sort of don't. Let me explain. Replacing the Scout's innate reduction to Profile Size isn't a good way to go because when the changes to Tacnet come in you're going to see a lot more people using the Active Scanner as a crutch to relay information. The only thing keeping Scouts off the map currently is that single blanket bonus and replacing it with a focus on cloaking... Well, basically what I'm trying to say is that Cloaking and Profile Dampening go hand in hand. If you can cloak, you need to be able to not light up from an Active Scanner. I've relayed this issue above as even with all skills level 5 a Scout has to field two Complex Profile Dampeners to dip beneath a Prototype Active Scanner. I think that's a little excessive considering how much SP is involved and removing that bonus makes that even worse - in fact it would make it to where a Scout CANNOT get around an Active Scanner, let alone put modules on to try and defend against it. As far as having cloaking for every other suit, I'm incredibly wary of allowing that because inevitably you're just making the CQC Caldari Assault that much more powerful and it's already replaced the Scout at that role. It'd be like allowing Assaults to use Heavy Weapons but saying they're balanced because they're not -as- effective as Sentinels who have a bonus to their reload speed. So, if we -really- want to go the route where Cloaking is available for everyone I strongly suggest different modules and limitations to prevent the abuse. There's two ways to go about that. A.) Different Cloaking modules and penalties for different suits. This is how it works in Eve Online in that only certain ships can field Covert Ops Cloaking Devices, with the rest having severe penalties for their use - none more precedent than a targeting delay. So for a period of time, you're not very combat worthy, giving the enemy an edge because you chose to go with a Cloaking Device. Another interesting bit is that it goes in the Hi-Slot, so unless the ship you're fielding has a utility hi-slot you're replacing a weapon and reducing your own damage potential. It also drastically lowers the speed of the cloaked ship to the point it's nigh unusable, where as Covert Ops Cloaking Devices (remember, can only be applied on certain ships) don't decrease the speed at all. So it -COULD- work if it was properly balanced (do you really think that will happen?) and there were different types of the module that give different effects for different roles. B.) They have to take away from something that someone else would use but a Scout would not. This could be something like increased Shield Delay or reduced Shield HP as a Scout only ever uses it after taking damage, at which point he's probably dead anyway. It has to be balanced so that a CQC Caldari Assault will be less likely to use it for CQC means and a Minmatar Logistics will be less likely to use it for ninja hacking. Alternatively, cloaking should only truly work on Scouts - linking directly to the Profile size, affecting how the cloak performs. The higher your profile, the more visible you are. This would encourage the use of Profile Dampener modules and the skill associated with it, being perfected by the Scout's innate low profile. Again, I strongly advise against making Cloaking Devices available to everyone because all it's doing is expanding who can perform the role. This is the reason Sentinels are allowed Heavy Weapons, Commandos are allowed Two Light Weapons and Logistics are allowed multiple equipment slots. It gives them a specialized role that -only they can perform-, which is what the Scout desperately needs right now. I also strongly advise not replacing the base reduction to profile size on Scouts from their skill as having a high profile with Cloaking is contradictory to it's use. An Active Scanner would just scan them down easier and it would be like the cloaking was never there as there would be a Red Chevron hovering over their head.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy 2283	Posted - 2013.08.01 01:43:00 - [5] - Quote Dominus Fatali wrote: We need to be able to scout. It may sound dumb, but the fact that base scan range is the same for all suits eliminates one of the main roles of the Scout, in addition to helping Scouts survive. I also agree with the fall damage and stamina bits; it is incredibly broken that multiple jumps require more stamina than the previous one. This issue might not be too bad if it was scaled differently, but as of now, jumping has the potential to use more than 100 Stamina. Falling damage should be completely eliminated - imo - by allowing Inertia Dampeners to kick in faster. Hell, if I had it my way you should be able to kill people with an Inertia Dampener
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy 2290	Posted - 2013.08.01 06:50:00 - [6] - Quote Decasor wrote: Another point related to the drop uplink visibility. Nanohive visibility is a killer, literally. It would be incredible if CCP could create a hive that was invisible, bar being visually sighted, however at a cost. Even if we could only carry 1 per equipment slot and it had the ammo capacity of the smaller one (I can't recall its name right now ). As it is, its a blaring neon light on the minimap that says 'here I am' to all and sundry. This is a massive drawback to snipers (not redline snipers who can drop any nanohive and not really have a drawback). You've actually just inspired me to continue this series with another post... I'll get right on that..
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy 2299	Posted - 2013.08.01 08:38:00 - [7] - Quote Just ran some math and we're going to assume a hypothetical situation in which Player (A) is using a Duvolle Focused Active Scanner and Player (B) trying to defeat it. In other words, fitting a Scout suit that could defeat this powerful tool. This is all assuming, however, that these numbers are not rounded as I describe here (another long ass post): https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=96217 Duvolle Focused Active Scanner - Precision: 15 db Scout Base Profile: 45 db Scout Skill Bonus: 5% reduced scan profile per level - New Value: 33.75 db Profile Dampening Skill Bonus: 2% reduced profile per level - New Value: 30.375 db Complex Profile Dampener: 25% reduced profile - New Value: 22.75125 db 2nd Complex Profile Dampener: 25% reduced profile - New Value: 17.0859375 db Basic Profile Dampener: 15% reduced profile - New value: 14.5230469 db Given that we need at least 3 Low Slots to field these modules, the only Scout suit that is even capable of performing this is the Gallente Scout Gk.0 (prototype) as no other scout suit has the low slots to field these modules. Essentially, this means that the Duvolle Focused Scanner can scan down -ANY SUIT IN THE GAME- besides this one build which was designed solely for it. This isn't a problem now being as no-one uses the Active Scanner but I feel this is largely due to the fact that they don't provide war points to the user. This will change, of course, whenever the TacNet changes come and they're the only viable means of spotting targets via TacNet. This will effectively limit even the best scouts in utilization as one of their primary defense tools has now been negated, having to rely on Speed instead and the biotics associated with it. Unfortunately, there is a host of problems concerning this that I've already outlined. Now, I'm not opposed to reducing the effectiveness of the Active Scanner and contributing a bonus to it via the skill. This would actually enforce specialization behind it and you will know that (at the very least) the other person had to invest a great deal of skill in order to scan you down. The down side to this is that it's easier to attain a Prototype Active Scanner than it is to defeat it, having to have level 5 in Scout Suits and Profile Dampening to even consider it. Just my personal opinion. Edit: This wouldn't be so much of an issue if cloaking were in game as at that point the person using the Active Scanner in question practically DESERVES to find you as he has designed his role specifically to tracking down Cloaked Scouts as opposed to anyone on the map.
Aeon Amadi A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. League of Infamy 2307	Posted - 2013.08.01 12:17:00 - [8] - Quote Django Quik wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Just ran some math and we're going to assume a hypothetical situation in which Player (A) is using a Duvolle Focused Active Scanner and Player (B) trying to defeat it. In other words, fitting a Scout suit that could defeat this powerful tool. This is all assuming, however, that these numbers are not rounded as I describe here (another long ass post): https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=96217 Duvolle Focused Active Scanner - Precision: 15 db... Isn't that the active scanner with the tiny scan arc? 60 degree angle (same as the standard) with 100 meter range. Basically a super-charged Standard Active Scanner with insane precision and a longer scan duration (meaning more ground covered). https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AijMolZU5dtXdEFzUDNYLXNhMEhYNGtmbDRMOUdmaUE#gid=0 In another post I've actually gone into detail explaining just how much ground it covers but I'll copy and paste it here: Using the formula: area=1/2 absin(x) we can find that the area of this scan is 4,330 meters. The CreoDron Flux Active scanner has a scan area (90 degrees * 200 meters * 200 meters) of 20,000 meters, which to me seems incredibly excessive considering it's precision is 28 db, meaning that only Scouts with all skills at level five (no modules attached, mind you) can dip beneath the radar.